# Workplace Surgery: Encouraging PTO without guilt

- **Episode:** [123](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/123.md) (2024-08-27)
- **Type:** workplace-surgery
- **Tags:** workplace-surgery, pto, vacation, guilt, financial-services
- **Time:** 35:02–40:54 (start 2102s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/123?t=2102](https://truthliesandwork.com/123?t=2102)

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[35:02] Al Elliott: Okay. So this person writes, I own a medium-sized business in the financial services sector. Now, this is quite interesting because it's linked very much to, I think, what you were talking about with Australia that's happened yesterday. I am committed to creating a great workplace, but there's something I've been struggling with. My employees seem to feel guilty about taking their PTO days, just in case anyone doesn't know, that's personal time off. Even though I'm totally supportive of them taking the time off. I want them to recharge, but I keep hearing things like, I'll just take a few days instead of a full week, or I'll be checking emails while I'm out. How do I encourage them to use their vacation days without guilt and ensure they really do disconnect? To be honest, I do tend to stay connected even on my days off, and they probably notice that. So should I make it a point to discuss this openly, maybe implement a policy. I don't want to feel— this is a key phrase— I just don't want them to feel like they're letting the team down by taking the time they've earned. This sounds like a thoroughly nice leader/owner/manager, doesn't it?
[36:05] Leanne Elliott: It does, it does. Heart is in the right place, action slightly off. First thing, don't check in. If you have a day off, you have a day off. You set that example. As much as leaders set examples, in the workplace. They set examples when they're out of the workplace. Don't log on to your email, don't answer any calls. You're not available, you're on holiday, you're off. That in itself will, will give that role model of behavior to the people in, in your team. Secondly, I would be inclined to do a bit of digging. Yes, you can put in a policy. Yes, we can encourage people to take leave. I do a bit of digging as to why people don't feel they can take time off. And more than likely, it's going to come down to workload, a lack of trust in colleagues to be able to cover work, or a feeling that if they do take their full holiday, they're going to negatively— it's going to negatively impact their development within the company and progression within the company somehow. It sounds like the third one isn't true from what you've said. So, it sounds like it's maybe something that's going on with workload or relationships within the business
[37:14] Al Elliott: Yeah
[37:14] Leanne Elliott: So, that's just going to require a bit of digging. One-to-ones is probably a really good informal way to start, particularly if you know the people that are saying, oh, just take a few days instead of a full week, and just really dig down into the reasons of it. Of course, you can do, you know, if you've got a really great engagement survey, it's going to ask those questions anyway about annual leave. But I think, yeah, a one-to-one conversation is probably a really good place to start. In terms of a policy, There's different ways you can do it, and ultimately policy is brought in to drive some type of behavioural change, but it's only going to really be possible to drive that behavioural change if you've got an environment in which that, that new behaviour is going to work adequately. If you don't have the trust within your team, then figuring out this really sexy handoff, handover process is probably going to fall down because there's not that trust initially that, that this person can look after my clients or my work whilst I'm away. So really the policy is going to be building on figuring out what this— what we'd call psychosocial factors influencing people's feelings or thinking around being able to take time off effectively. Um, but yeah, in terms of, in terms of policy, you can force people to take their annual leave, use it or lose it. Um, you can try— you can bring that in in terms of a quarter. Everyone has to take it, take it off over a quarter. Changing the narrative around people who do take time off, in that when you bring this policy in— so for example, you bring in this policy, you have to use at least 5 days holiday every quarter in whatever combination of, of, you know, pattern that you want to. And if you don't, you are letting the team down because you're not taking the appropriate time to rest and recover, to come back full of energy where we need you to be, firing on all cylinders, whatever cheesy analogy you want to use. Um, it's flipping the framing. So, you're not letting the team down by taking holiday, you're letting the team down by not taking your holidays. And again, it's that messaging that's going to drive the cultural and behavioural change that you're going to need. Um, but yeah, you're gonna have to figure out what's, what's occurring first for, for then that really great, great policy and messaging to work
[39:26] Al Elliott: When you were talking there, it occurred to me, these people are saying to you, I'll just take a few days instead of a full week, or I'll I'll be checking on emails when I'm out. That sounds to me like either they want to ingratiate themselves with you— that's gracious, not the right word— but kind of like to prove to you that they're working hard, or they're slightly fearful because they're not saying it to them, to each other, that you're hearing it. And they're probably— you're probably hearing it for a very good reason, because they want you to know that they are doing extra, extra work out of time. We have no way of knowing what the, um, what the incentive for doing that is for each of each of your individuals. But just something to think about— why would they want you to know that they're putting in 110%, 115%? Usually it's because they are fearful of what you think if they didn't, or more, more likely, they see, see you putting in 115% and think that that's what they want to do, or that's what they have to do
[40:19] Leanne Elliott: Yeah, but you know, you can't tie yourself up in knots asking yourself these questions and trying to answer them. That's why I said, you know, you need to get in there and understand the fact that are influencing these, these behaviours and really understand why people have these motivations. It could be from you, it could be from another reason, it could be from a whole host of things. So yeah, I think that's the key, isn't it? Do get— use your curiosity, your kindness and curiosity to figure out what's going on
[40:45] Al Elliott: Otherwise, it sounds like you are on your way to building an amazing workplace culture. So well done, you. I think that's the end And Leanne, is there anything you want to add?