# Train your managers — building leaders from within

- **Episode:** [127](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/127.md) (2024-09-12)
- **Type:** other
- **Tags:** management-training, leadership-development, internal-promotion
- **Time:** 15:03–21:23 (start 903s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/127?t=903](https://truthliesandwork.com/127?t=903)

---

[15:03] Al Elliott: If Leah had a catchphrase, it would be train your managers. And at MAP, both Paul and Amanda have fully embraced this. They discovered pretty early on that the secret to great teams were great managers, and they spent quite a bit of time and trial and error finding the management structure that was the right one to help develop and empower this younger generation of accountants. We're going to rejoin the interview now where they both explain how the management structure has evolved and how they nurture these younger employees? I said earlier on in the conversation about the fact that we wanted to bring people in who could hit the ground running, and then later on we'd start to build the business around younger people. Through that journey, you know, the long way around that journey, we did try to hire a couple of more management-level people who couldn't just hit the ground running from a, you know, a services perspective, but could actually help us to better run and manage the company. And that didn't quite work out for us. And when we looked at it, we, you know, we're— I think we're quite good at being reflective and not just jumping to conclusions that hiring experienced managers doesn't work. That's not how we felt, because we knew that we could have just been unlucky. The next hire could have been brilliant. But when we looked at the time and energy that it takes to find somebody like that and the cost of a recruitment agency and the notice period and the chances of them then being a culture fit with the existing team and coming in and, you know, managing people that have been there for 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years. Overall, we concluded that the better path for us was going to be to develop from within. As I say, for those people to come in and manage people that are 8, 9, 10 years longer than them but are actually 5 or 10 years younger than them and less experienced and less qualified was difficult because of the reasons that were said. You know, we've brought young people in who within a few years are absolutely phenomenal at what they do. You know, they're top-notch at the area that they work in. So then for somebody to come and review their work and manage them when they're self-sufficient was difficult. So the leadership problem then became, how do you create managers and leaders out of people that have never managed or led. And again, we went a long way around it. We tried certain people internally who we felt that they should probably move into those positions, and they felt that they should as well as part of their career development. But then it was a bit, you know, square pegs in round holes. And I don't regret it because we observed and we sort of had 2 casualties and one success out of it. But even the success, which was David, um, we both recognized that he was happier being a client-facing person, and we were asking him to do that alongside trying to be a manager leader in the, in the business. So it's, it's, it's been a journey of, you know, learning and trial and error, but also not being afraid to— rip it up, um, and, and reverse decisions as long as you have, you know, good conversations with those people. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a massive fan of— I like people to be brave and push out of their comfort zone. I don't want them to be doing things that makes them clearly unhappy and it's just not suited to their personality. So when you recognize that and you recognize it together, it's about having a mature conversation with that with those people about where you've observed they probably fit better in the business. But it's a 2-way conversation. It's not, this is what I'm now doing. It's, this is what I've observed and this is what I'm thinking. What do you think? And we've had, I think, 4 people now that have gone and set up their own business after leaving MAP, which is fantastic and great, great for them. And Great for us, I guess, from a pride perspective and how much we've played a part in their career. And you can't hold people like that back. It's recognizing that one of the hardest things that Amanda alluded to before is, oh, we're letting that person go. I thought they were amazing for us. They were amazing for us for a period of time, but that tenure is—
[19:23] Leanne Elliott: Yeah
[19:24] Al Elliott: has gone, that then they're no longer the right, the right person for us anymore. So we've really landed on like a leadership of me, Amanda, and Stuart as non-exec. And then we've got middle managers who more and more over time are coming off the tools and more into managing their area. And we've put in the right support structure around them with, with Leanne and with Amanda and with Stuart to help them to move into that role and to learn the skills that they need to be able to do it because they were previously technicians. But you can't force it is what I'd say. You have to find people that have got it within them. Some people like to just be fantastic technicians and that is great. We need those people. And some people realize that they prefer to manage and develop others. So Will is the obvious example. Will now manages the largest team in our business. He manages 11 people, and the average age is probably 19 and a half. Many people would hate that responsibility and they would run a mile. And we asked Will the question, look, we're conscious here, we're building a bit of a beast here. Which way do you want to go with this? Because he had become technically qualified with ACCA
[20:42] Leanne Elliott: Yeah
[20:43] Al Elliott: You know, his peers were all managing a nice little small portfolio of clients and developing the technical skills and implementing the stuff that they've learned through the qualifications. You might want that, Will. And he said, no. He said, I get my fulfillment by developing and managing young people. It's like, great, that's— we want to build a strategy around that. So off we go. Well, let's talk about that, Amanda, in terms of Will, because I know that when in conversation we've had before, Will has come up as an absolute super So, the research that Leanne did came up, found that leaders who are strong at relationships had the biggest impact on the team. I sense that Will is very, very strong at the relationship side of it. What is it about him that makes him such a great leader?