# A compelling lived experience story

- **Episode:** [131](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/131.md) (2024-09-26)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** psychopathy, lived-experience, stories
- **Time:** 54:29–57:44 (start 3269s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/131?t=3269](https://truthliesandwork.com/131?t=3269)

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[54:29] Abigail Marsh: There are a lot of really compelling stories that I've come across over the years of people who are psychopathic. I mean, it's one that comes to mind quickly because it's a story that was very well publicized just earlier this year. One of the members of our board is Patrick Gagneux, who is a woman who was diagnosed as a sociopath. And I'll just very quickly say, what's the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath? Psychopathy is a real scientific term. It's a real diagnosis. There's scientific societies and scientific measures, and it's published in the scientific literature. Sociopathy is none of those things. It's a term that was coined, I don't know, 50 years ago or so to try to reduce the stigma of psychopathy, but it doesn't— nobody in scientific or clinical settings uses that term anymore. It's a popular term. Media loves it. I don't know, maybe it's just the cadence of the term or something that people love. I have no idea. Um, but you will never hear clinicians or researchers referring to sociopathy anymore. It's mostly just a term you see in the media and journalism anyways. Uh, but Patrick was diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder several decades ago. She refers to herself as sociopathic, and, you know, that's fine with me. Uh, certainly in a, in a media context, I understand why
[55:42] Leanne Elliott: Yeah
[55:43] Abigail Marsh: And she tells a really great story about how she really, from a very young age, had almost no empathy or compassion. She got in trouble all the time, was occasionally very violent. And then over the course of her life, gained some insight into the ways that she was different from the average person and into the ways that the way these traits were expressing themselves in her behavior was really hurting her. Right? She was the one who was losing by treating people the way she was treating them and using them instrumentally. And learned, again, because I think she does have integrity, to behave in ways that were more prosocial and has a great life now because of it. And I think it's a great story because it is so inspiring. And I think it gives hope to all the families out there. And I know there's so many parents out there who have children who have psychopathic traits who are not getting the help that they need because clinicians don't look for this disorder, I think, nearly as often as they should when the signs are there. And, you know, or people who are worried about themselves or worried about somebody close to them. And it's like, look, this, you know, it's not a death sentence, right? It's not hopeless. And people can change. It's hard, but it's certainly possible. The behaviors that are associated with psychopathy should be stigmatized. Hurting other people, Exploiting, manipulating. Like, those are— it's good to stigmatize those behaviors. We do not want people to be proud of those sorts of things. Uh, however, I think it's incredibly important for people to recognize that the psychopathic traits that put people at risk for those behaviors are not, um, not something anybody chooses to have. They are a disorder and they are something that can be treated. People can get better. And so we are 100% trying to get the message out about that. Because the more people know about psychopathy, um, and the more they recognize when either their own or somebody around them's traits and behavior really reflect psychopathy, the more likely they are to get connected to the treatment that can help them improve