# The hybrid work myth — why remote isn't the villain

- **Episode:** [139](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/139.md) (2024-10-24)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** hybrid-work, remote-work, myth, connection
- **Time:** 29:01–49:05 (start 1741s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/139?t=1741](https://truthliesandwork.com/139?t=1741)

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[29:01] Leanne Elliott: I'm wondering, is there something we can do in that moment to stop somebody being, uh, you know, just doing a lap to maybe staying an hour? Or is it really just about getting people to the event and then letting it evolve?
[29:12] Connie Hadley: I think you want a mix of unstructured social events because that is where sometimes the magic happens. You know, like fun conversations emerge because you can talk about whatever you want. And also for some people who are more social, they really love that kind of open-ended socializing. But for, again, for thinking about how to include everyone, including people who may be a little more reluctant, a little shyer because they're lonely, or maybe they're just introverted, or maybe they're new, for whatever reason, those kinds of people benefit from prompts and structure. So sometimes it is good to give people an assignment. And I say that with love. I think it's good to have a question, for example, that everybody fills out or to give them a funny little quiz and everybody shares their results with each other or to give them— sometimes when I'm trying to open up a conversation, I'll give people a very vague photo of something and ask people to interpret it. Just something that kind of warms up the conversation. So that everybody knows they have something specific that they can contribute and they know what's being asked of them. That can really help your, your quieter and more reluctant people. But again, sometimes that can also feel a little too artificial and constraining, and some people just want to talk about whatever they want to talk about. So I think just a mix of both is good
[31:16] Connie Hadley: Seamless
[31:54] Al Elliott: It can
[31:57] Connie Hadley: I am
[31:58] Al Elliott: Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts
[32:02] Leanne Elliott: But come back
[32:02] Al Elliott: Yeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in
[32:12] Leanne Elliott: Welcome back. Let's get down to it. Let's talk about loneliness in teams
[32:17] Al Elliott: Now, here's another key point from Connie's research that really challenges a common workplace myth. The myth is that teams will solve loneliness. It's a natural assumption, I suppose, to think that putting people on teams will help them feel more connected. But actually, that's not always the case. Being part of a team doesn't necessarily protect people from feeling lonely. In fact, it can often make things worse when employees expect closeness from their teams but don't get it
[32:42] Connie Hadley: Teams can be a fantastic opportunity for people to get connected in a close-knit way with others. And when I talk about what makes for an effective team, one of the criteria I use that's, that's based on one of my mentors from Harvard, Harvard, Richard Hackman. He had said that, you know, you really want this team to survive to the, for the next project. And the way they survive is by developing that sense of cohesion and interpersonal trust. That's just so wonderful that it does make you want to keep signing up again and again with the same team. So teams can provide the kind of connection level and camaraderie that people are seeking. But they don't always. And the Bummer is that if you're on a team where you don't feel connected, it's like a double hit because you feel like not only are you lonely, but you feel worse about it because you're like, how is that possible? I actually am on a team with these other people, but they don't seem to care about me. They don't seem to show any personal interest in me whatsoever. And it's almost like more hurtful in a way. And the expectations are higher when you're on a team. And then when they don't meet, they, it feels more painful. So, you know, in separate research, Mark Wardison and I wrote an article about how you should really evaluate the way your teams are structured. And from a productivity standpoint, certain features make sense, like having really fast agile teams that form and disband quickly, or staffing people on multiple teams so that you never have a single moment of wasted time in your day. But, you know, all those features have a downside, and they can reduce the amount of time people spend with each other getting to know each other
[34:21] Leanne Elliott: Is there such a thing as, as pathological loneliness, or can loneliness creep into mental illness? What I'm wondering is, is there a point on the continuum where it's gone beyond what an organization can do to help somebody feel less lonely compared to it really being a challenge for the individual specifically?
[34:38] Connie Hadley: Great question. And it's important, one of the things that I should caveat when I encourage organizations to measure loneliness using our tool or other tools, Don't ask a question if you're not prepared to deal with the answers that you find. And same thing, if I was advising a check on the mental health status of employees, I would say, you know, if you're asking people to tell you that they're lonely or tell you that they're struggling with their mental health and you provide zero response and help to them, that's irresponsible. So loneliness is not itself a clinical condition. It is not a mental health condition. And we're very clear on that. And that again goes back to anyone can feel lonely. And a lot of it's about the situation. So it's not something that someone carries with them from place to place. Yet it is also possible to become chronically lonely in all aspects of your life. And in that case, you are more likely to develop into another mental health condition such as depression. And conversely, in sort of thinking about the reverse causality, people who have Any kind of health condition, whether maybe it would be something like lupus or diabetes, as well as something like depression or anxiety or bipolar disorder, they often also can become lonely because they don't feel that they have that peer network and social support where people really understand them and can sympathize and empathize with what they're going through. So there's, there's definitely a lot of, you know, correlation, I would say, in loneliness, with loneliness to some other aspects of someone's life that might make them feel more disconnected, but it's not itself a mental health condition. That again, though, just to say, even though everybody can experience it, and it may be situational, like, take it seriously, like you would another mental health condition too. Don't hope that it just solves itself
[36:29] Al Elliott: Now, there's another misconception that Connie's research tackles is the idea that loneliness is a personal problem, not something organizations need to address. Now, often employers view loneliness as a weakness or perhaps a personal issue, but it completely overlooks how the work environment can impact someone's social connections. Loneliness can affect anyone from entry-level employees to CEOs, and it's not just about working remotely or having certain personality traits. It's often about the work environment itself. So what can managers do to reduce loneliness and improve connection in the workplace?
[37:04] Leanne Elliott: If in-person doesn't always fix the loneliness, what Could hybrid or remote teams do, or team leaders do, to build a stronger connection?
[37:13] Connie Hadley: Each company, you know, or organization should make their own decisions about their return-to-office policy. You know, the work that we do is cross-sectional in nature, means it's across a whole lot of different companies. So, we can't tell any one company what the right policy is. But I will say again, on balance, if you're thinking about going to the extreme end of 5 days in person, then I would just make sure you have your own data to support that decision as the right one for the well-being of your people. In terms of if you want to continue hybrid, though, or if you want to continue fully remote for some of your employees, I think there's lots you can do. I think our imaginations have been a bit untested in this regard. So, for example, one of the hot things that people really want is meeting chitchat time. Like, there's zero reason why they can't be done remotely. I mean, that, that's— and in fact, not only can it be done remotely, it might be able to be better done remotely. So think about, like, in a Zoom or a Teams call, all the little cool bells and whistles you can add into a conversation that'll enhance that kind of personal chitchat. So you can have a quick pop-up quiz. Microsoft has embedded, like, games, like collaborative games you can play for 5 minutes at the start of a meeting. You can use the chat function. You can, you can do, you know, Q&A as a separate function. There's so many ways to get people talking that are embedded in that kind of remote technology that it's a shame that so much of it doesn't get used for this purpose. And then other ways that people can get engaged remotely, say for example, you're fully remotely, I did recommend again, sometimes occasionally getting together with people in person would be really lovely. But if not, you know, a lot of it's thinking about how do you set up your, your norms of behavior as a group? What's okay to talk about? What's not okay to talk about? What's the forum? And I, I'm a big believer in getting work done. Like, I'm not trying to have people spend 5 hours a day just chit-chatting. Like, I'm a really impatient, like, driven person. So I get the mentality of a lot of managers of like, let's just get down to business. But I think if you open up the space, and we talk about in the article, like designing some slack in your work particularly for remote communications, you're going to allow more of that conversation to happen. And so, the worst is when we know we're going from meeting to meeting to meeting on video with zero time for even a bio break in between, and let alone any time to chitchat with people because you go straight into the agenda. That is, is, is not a good way to run remote communications. But alternatively, you could do things people do, 15-minute You know, video conference coffee chats one-on-one, and there are programs out there that can randomly match you with people. For example, that would be a nice way to start networking and getting to know others again with a prompt or just open, free-flowing conversation. And then there's other ways that you can do too. You can take advantage of like creating special channels for people to share their dog pictures or you know other things that can be you know doing like a one of those like mural boards online where people can post up things that inspirational. Quotes and things that mean something to them with a little explanation. There's just so many tools that could be used to create this sense of really exchanging personal and meaningful information about each other and building up that kind of affection and mutual respect and trust. So I say, you know, we have a lot more we can do, and I really look forward to all the possibilities that are out there. To do this well, you have to make it culturally normative to prioritize it and actually tactically feasible to accomplish it. And I think that's where oftentimes it falls apart. And I'll pick up a little bit more on the culture aspect as well, because we see that in our most recent report where you just see the description. We asked people to— we gave people a list of different cultural descriptors. And you see, for example, that the people who are most lonely are more highly likely compared to the people who aren't lonely to say things like, I have a very competitive culture. And, you know, again, where people just don't feel that they can open up to each other without sacrificing or displaying some weakness or potential vulnerability or sacrificing their productivity. You might see bias. You know, maybe people aren't speaking up because they don't feel like they're going to be welcomed for whatever they say, or they're not going to be treated with that kind of inclusive empathy that that we need to make people really bond, or they're even saying things like toxic, you know. And there were a lot of stories in our— and the audio recordings are just terrible sounding workplaces where there was one person who talked about, um, yeah, they offer coffee and donuts and nobody goes. So this would be your example. And she's like, because everybody's always backbiting and bickering and, you know, and just constantly like, you know, negativity. She's like, I'm not going to go. go sit and have a donut with those people. So, you have to do the whole thing from the beginning of your values to carving out the time to really fully engaging. And leaders need to engage too and show this is important. And that's when you're going to get the results. And then, even that being said, if you're coming from— you're trying to course-correct and you don't have the situation now and you're like really determined to make a change, you're going to have to give people time. Because they are not going to believe you for the first few rounds of these exercises. So you're going to also have to like get over their skepticism that is naturally developed when they see these things, you know, not being executed well. So again, I understand that not everybody enjoys chitchat, and I'm— I totally get that. And so, you know, there are certain people who may not want to do it all the time. But if you're doing it the right way, Everybody should end up at some point engaging in it
[42:53] Leanne Elliott: And does that loop back to what you said right at the beginning about making sure you've got consistency? Did leaders just give up too soon?
[42:59] Connie Hadley: I think they do give up too soon. I don't know that they fully buy into it, you know, and that, that, you know, dissonance shows through in their execution. Um, so that's one of the reasons I'm so happy that Harvard Business Review put our work on the COVID Because to me, it's them saying to senior leaders, hey, you got to get involved. This is important. Please pay attention to this and start making changes. That is so helpful for all the people out there working. Because if the leaders don't buy in, there's just limited amounts of what you can do. And also, I want to expand that a little bit because I also don't think it's hopeless if your leaders don't buy in. I think you can create your own little pocket of camaraderie
[43:43] Al Elliott: Yeah
[43:44] Connie Hadley: And, and go out there and do that and try the same tips, you know, but maybe that you have to approach it a little bit more creatively. No matter who you are, you can improve the connection even with just one other person in a way that'll make your work life better
[43:59] Leanne Elliott: Many people may assume that loneliness at work affects only the more outgoing social types, and that us introverts who typically need less interaction are immune. However, Connie's research shows that introverts are actually more likely to feel lonely at work than extroverts, even though they might not seek out as much social connection. This finding really does flip the script on what we think loneliness looks like in the workplace and who it affects. It turns out loneliness can impact anyone, no matter how much they desire connection
[44:31] Connie Hadley: So given that loneliness is a real issue for many, what can individuals There's some wonderful research by another psychologist named Nick Epley and his colleagues, where they studied kind of random social encounters. And I think it absolutely proves the point that anybody can approach anyone, even a relative stranger in your, in your organization. And what you will find is, you're— most people, when they do, they do this. For example, like one scenario is they'd make people go on like a subway train and have them talk to the person next to them. And so before they make this participant in their study like go talk to this random stranger, they'd measure how awkward they think the conversation is going to be, how connected they think they're going to feel to that person by the end of this 10-minute conversation, and how happy they think that they're going to feel. And usually people are pretty low, like their expectations are pretty low, as you can imagine. And then what they find at the end of it is The expectations were so wrong because people do end up feeling it wasn't as awkward as I thought it was going to be. I do feel actually quite a bit happier than I thought I would, and I feel more connected to this person. And the best part is when they survey the other random stranger who just happened to get foisted, be foisted, you know, this research participant, that other person also ended up feeling good about that conversation. And so I will say, yes, there are some, maybe some, some Real misanthropes out there, but for the most part, if you make the first step and you go out there and you invite someone to that 15-minute virtual coffee, or you stop by their desk to have a little chit-chat, you know you are going to find that they're responsive because again, our data would show and the data of other people like Gallup's most recent data says one in five people are feeling lonely right now in American workplaces. So just think of the odds. Like there are a lot of other people out there feeling just. as disconnected as you. So the moment you make that move, you may open up a whole new world for them too
[46:29] Leanne Elliott: I remember feeling a bit disconnected, um, a couple of years ago. It was, it was towards the end of the pandemic. And I just, for January, I was like, right, everyone who connects with me on LinkedIn, or I connect with, I'm going to say, do you fancy a virtual coffee? Here's my 15-30 minute meeting link. I was one, surprised by how many people actually booked in. Two, really surprised by how much I enjoyed it. And I'm a fairly introverted person. And three, there's people— this was 2 and a half years ago— I'm still in touch now. I still have never met them, but we have virtual coffees. We talk about work. We talk about— I think you're right. It's amazing how just the capacity we have as humans to want to connect
[47:05] Connie Hadley: I love that story. And bravo to you for opening yourself up to this whole world of people for a virtual coffee. But yeah, but I think your story is actually, it's not just because you're this famous podcaster that you've benefited from that experience. I think everybody can. And I know it doesn't seem like it, but I'm actually in between introversion and extroversion. I'm the ambivert on the scale. So I actually really dread going to happy hours myself because I do get social anxiety about it. So I'm not advocating for this because I don't know how hard it is to get over that hesitation, but I am advocating for it because I know in my own personal life and in my research that vast majority of time it is worth it and you are enhancing your experience and someone else's. So I just say, Just take that on faith, take a few chances, and soon you'll get that ball rolling. Again, there are few things in life I can advocate that have a higher likelihood of success than this
[48:02] Leanne Elliott: Tell us quickly about your self-assessment tool. For anyone listening, how can they use it either as an individual or a business?
[48:08] Connie Hadley: Well, so we published, as I mentioned, it's on the Institute for Life at Work's website, a research report that has all the— it has a user's guide for the scale. So, it has the 5 questions, the scoring key and how you know how to bucket the responses as low, medium, or high in loneliness based on our metrics. So that's for probably the best way for organizations to use it because then they can embed it in their own survey and then get collect their own internal data. But if you're just a person who's curious listening to this, you can also go to the website and get a link to do a little online test. And the benefit of that for you is that you get your scores automatically calculated and you get a little response. It tells you if you're high, low, or moderate in loneliness. And the benefit for us and for the greater world is that we're using this to also just be kind of an ongoing data collection method. So, people who sign up to take it are going to help us learn more about loneliness so we can continue to build out solutions for people that work