# What is the HDS and how is it different?

- **Episode:** [14](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/14.md) (2022-11-29)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** hds, hogan development survey, psychometrics
- **Time:** 9:26–14:47 (start 566s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/14?t=566](https://truthliesandwork.com/14?t=566)

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[9:26] Al Elliott: So we asked Sandy a little bit more about the HDS and his take on what it is and why it offers a unique perspective on leadership personality and behavior. And this is what he said
[9:37] Sandy McKenzie: Most assessment tools are fairly well aligned. So the Hogan Personality Inventory tool is similar to others in terms of the outputs. They're essentially all based around the Big 5 personality traits of neuroticism, extroversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and openness. The unique factor with Hogan is none of the other assessment tool platforms provide the dark side, and this is the Hogan Development Survey
[10:08] Al Elliott: So he's mentioned there these 5 traits. Now, am I saying this right? 5 personality traits?
[10:13] Leanne Elliott: Yeah, the Big 5 personality traits. Um, so yeah, I guess they just unpack a little bit of the theory behind this. So personality research and practice has typically been divided into normal, And abnormal, and abnormal referring to a clinical personality disorder. And the dominant theory in normal, or what is called bright side personality research, um, and practice as well, is the Big 5. Extraversion, so that's being gregarious, assertive, excitement-seeking. The second is agreeableness, um, so this is being straightforward, trusting, or altruistic. Conscientiousness, So very much about being self-disciplined, dutiful, very achievement-focused. Then we have neuroticism. That's often defined by anxiety, vulnerability, impulsiveness. And then finally, openness to experiencing feelings, ideas, actions, or values. So these are the Big 5 personality traits, or the Big 5 model, you might see it referred to as well. And of course, while no theory is without criticism, the Big 5 is actually one of the most comprehensive and widely accepted theories of personality
[11:24] Al Elliott: So what we're saying, if I've got this right, is that those 5 personality traits, they refer to you whether you're bright side or dark side. It's not a question of, oh, there's another 5 for dark side. Those are the 5 that people get measured against
[11:38] Leanne Elliott: Not quite. So the, the Big 5 is the dominant theory in bright side personality. But what we're saying is that Dark side personality traits are just an extension of these, um, or personality disorders are an extreme form of normal behavior. So when the Hogan Development Survey, or the HDS, was developed, um, using the DSM descriptions of personality disorders, um, as I mentioned before, each one, uh, was linked— each scale on the Hogan Development Survey was linked to a personality disorder in the HDS. So for example, The HDS has a scale called mischievous. When scored highly, that describes someone as risk-taking, testing their limits, lots about innovation perhaps. But if behaviour becomes destructive, people can become manipulative, deceitful, exploitative, and those traits in themselves correspond with the antisocial personality disorder on the DSM. That's characterized by lawbreaking, lying, impulsivity, and a lack of remorse. So there is, you can kind of see that this extension of going from, you know, risk-taking, testing limits, then being manipulative, deceitful, to then being lawbreaking, lying. This is kind of how these traits manifest over that continuum
[13:04] Al Elliott: So if we're talking about the antisocial personality disorder, which is part of this DSM, Then is that what you would describe someone who's a psychopath?
[13:12] Leanne Elliott: Yeah, exactly. Psychopaths, sociopaths as well, are considered to have a severe form of antisocial personality disorder. I think when you just look back at some of those characteristics there, it does make you question Elon Musk's psychopathology. Does he have a serious mental disorder? Is he a psychopath? Which is why we wanted to speak to Sandy, who is our guest, as Al said, behind the HDS. We just start to explore Elon's psychology and personality through this lens of dark side. I asked Sandy to profile Elon Musk on the HDS based on what we know about his upbringing, his career, his recent behaviors, and the results were really, really interesting. But before we dive in, If you want to follow along, we are going to post the mock HDS that Sandy produced for us on our socials. So if you want that visual to follow along, then that's useful to have. Before we do, I guess as well, one big caveat with this. We're not saying that anyone who scores highly on the HDS is going to have a personality disorder. That's not how this works. In fact, Hogan makes a really— or Hogan Assessment Systems, who are the creators of the HDS, make a really important distinction that under certain circumstances, these traits may actually be strengths. It's more that under pressure or under stress, they can become counterproductive. Sandy explains a bit more