# Rob Kalwarowsky on the fall of toxic leadership

- **Episode:** [159](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/159.md) (2025-01-02)
- **Type:** other
- **Tags:** toxic-leadership, leadership, workplace-culture
- **Time:** 18:08–23:52 (start 1088s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/159?t=1088](https://truthliesandwork.com/159?t=1088)

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[18:08] Leanne Elliott: Rob Kalvarovsky thinks 2025 could be the beginning of the end For toxic leadership. Oh, Rob, I hope so
[18:19] Al Elliott: My prediction for 2025. So we're seeing this and we've seen this for a while. We've seen a lot of Gen Zs who are not putting up with asshole bosses anymore. And we've seen it with quick quit talks are a global phenomenon. People are setting boundaries. They're not working in traditional ways anymore. And that's only growing as We, as more Gen Zs are coming into the workforce, and even we're seeing the pushback from asshole bosses where they're wanting folks to come back to the office. They're demanding these types of things and folks are leaving organizations like that. That trend will continue. And I suspect that most, some of those cultures that are old school and that are demanding these things and are led by people who are not great, maybe toxic managers, they're going to start losing talent. And that talent is going to go towards leaders who are supportive, who are empathetic, who do offer choice. And that trend is going to be a huge trend in 2025. The war for talent is only going to get bigger. And the folks that are the great leaders are going to get that talent. I know in your book, there's a very surprising message behind why someone is an asshole boss. I'm wondering, without giving away the whole secret, could you tell us a little bit more about why someone might be an asshole boss? Asshole bosses are not created. So it's, it's not like, you know, you go to your interview, your job interview, and they ask you where you want to be in 5 years. And you sit there and you go, I want to be the greatest asshole of all time. It's, it's, we end up in those ways because we have parts of us that were formed through childhood and teenage years that they learn certain behaviors. They learn certain ways of being. And then when we end up as we're a manager, we're getting pressure from all ends of the spectrum because we see with the data now that Middle managers have never been under more pressure. They've never been burnt out as much as they are now. There's so much that people are cutting budgets, they're cutting people, and the managers are the ones who have to deal with this. That is incredibly hard. And what that does is it puts you in a place of fear. And that fear is where some of these bad boss behaviors come out. And of course, people, they, they also ascend in organizations because some of these bad boss behaviors, specifically ones around abusive and narcissism, they actually gain power and influence in organizations, of course, toxic ones, but they gain power and influence and those folks rise to the top. And that's why you see toxic leadership filtered down through organizations. This is actually a huge problem. And so asshole bosses don't just impact themselves and their individual teams. They create a toxic environment for departments, for companies. It ripples out. And if we look at some of the research, the first thing is companies that have destructive leaders, they perform worse. So the productivity goes down, profitability goes down, wellness goes down, and happiness goes down. These, of course, are really, really important. There's a study from Stanford University that talks about how the ways that companies manage their people is the 5th leading cause of death in the United States, equivalent of 120,000 deaths per year. That's an incredibly high number. Toxic cultures increase the risk of depression by 300%, which of course leads to additional suicides and other things. And so toxic leadership not only destroys the company and their ability to reach long-term goals, it also destroys people's lives. And that's why this is so important
[22:42] Leanne Elliott: And we cannot allow toxic leaders The statistics about the health impact of toxic leadership never fail to surprise me. And the idea that workplace management is the 5th leading cause of death in the US, my goodness, that's not just a workplace issue. That's, that's a societal issue. It's almost a public health crisis
[23:08] Al Elliott: It is. And you know what, I think Gen Z deserves a lot of credit here, which is something not many podcasters of my age will say, but they're not just complaining about bad bosses. They're actually taking action. They're going to the polls. actively choosing to work for leaders who show the empathy and support that's required. They're actually taking action rather than just complaining about it. Not looking at you, potentially millennials and younger Gen X. Sorry
[23:28] Leanne Elliott: Hey, but no, it does, and it reminds me of what Dr. Audrey Tang said at the start about recognizing the work that truly benefits us. And I think that extends into the environment we're choosing to put ourselves in. And maybe that is the connecting thread with these predictions, people are getting better at identifying what they need from work and demanding those changes