# Hot Take: Veerle Numan on measuring the impact of learning & AI

- **Episode:** [174](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/174.md) (2025-02-25)
- **Type:** hot-take
- **Tags:** learning, ai, impact, measurement
- **Time:** 20:38–32:19 (start 1238s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/174?t=1238](https://truthliesandwork.com/174?t=1238)

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[20:38] Al Elliott: Okay, so after this very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take, which is from a woman from Valamis, which is one of the leading learning management system providers. If you thought that training and development was just throwing a manual at a new starter and hoping for the best, then Veerle is definitely going to change your mind
[22:07] Al Elliott: It can
[22:15] Leanne Elliott: But come back
[22:15] Al Elliott: Yeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in
[22:22] Leanne Elliott: Welcome back. Alistair, talk to me about this week's hot take, will you?
[22:28] Al Elliott: Right. We've got a brilliant guest for you today. Veerle Numan. Am I saying that right, Leanne?
[22:32] Leanne Elliott: I think so
[22:33] Al Elliott: Yeah. Veerle, if I've got it right. I'm sorry. I've been practising all morning. She's a senior learning solutions partner at Valamis. They're the folks who build these really clever, like, learning platforms for big companies. Now, I know what you're thinking, another tech platform promising to solve all our problems, but stick with me because Veerle's got a really interesting take on how we can actually measure the stuff we usually think is unmeasurable in learning and development. Plus, she's got some pretty strong opinions about AI that might just surprise you
[22:59] Veerle Numan: Hi, I'm Veerle Numan. I'm a learning solution partner here at Valamis, and Valamis is a learning platform, and we build learning ecosystems for companies so we can connect the dots between the learning And the business. And what I do is I help my customers implement it, but then mostly from the L&D point of view. So how can an LMS help you drive the changes that you want in your company?
[23:29] Leanne Elliott: So with that in mind, I'm really looking forward to this one. Tell me, what is your hot take?
[23:34] Veerle Numan: My hot take has all to do with data. So I believe you can measure the immeasurable. In LMD data in your learning management system, when you use that properly, it can give you so much insight. It can not just only be informative, but also actionable. So you know how you can change your learning environment. So of course it's important for HR, for example, to track compliancy, how that's being done, if that's all good. But we also have data which can show how people are interacting with your learning content. So are people, for example, engaging with it or not as much? What are the ratings, but also really about the content itself? So for example, did people skip a video or did they scroll through it? So you can really measure how do people interact with it. So you can then make your content even better. So it are not just outcomes, but it gives you measurable progress that could align with your bigger organizational goals. So quick example, you have one video lesson in which you made a role play to demonstrate something and a, let's say, text-based lesson. You can analyze both to kind of do an A/B test, which one is performing better, and then make actionable and measurable options. Of course, we can also still combine it because of course you have your own preferences. So maybe I really like to watch that video, but my colleague would love to read it as a text, but then we at least know what the business wants and what the business needs so we can connect to that. So what we often see for an HR is that they often are really focused on compliance certification. So for example, food safety certificates, safety trainings, so first aid, that kind of stuff, and data that shows how it can contribute to the overall employees' performance. However, on the L&D side of things, we see Other KPIs that are important. So for example, how does content drive the skill development within the company? Or how does the content help learners to better retain their knowledge? Or how are they engaged with it? So for a L&D, we, for example, track skill matrix, how people are growing within the company, and then we can check how the learning content is kind of connected to that and therefore helps the learners and the employees grow within their organization. So what my customers, for example, do is they have a training and the learner give directly feedback after the training. And the same does the manager does the same, but then after 3 months. So we can really check what is the impact of the training on in the work processes. So it's not just a one-time been there, done that checklist. No, it's really measuring, did the training contribute to, for example, faster onboarding, faster working, less safety issues whatsoever in the workplace
[27:24] Leanne Elliott: Is there maybe an example you can give of, of, of maybe how you've helped an organization realize the value of L&D by using this platform and process?
[27:33] Veerle Numan: Yeah. So one of my customers has quite an extensive library with questions. So what they do is they analyze their questions and see if the questions are answered correctly. If, for example, they, let's say, hit a 90% rate, they say, hey, people already know it good enough, so we don't need to do this knowledge check anymore with this specific question. Let's switch it up for something else so we can still drive that learner to learn more and be engaged with the content. Of course, there is still kind of a mix between some questions the person might have wrong, so he feels the need to learn, but not always have everything correct. Because yeah, if you have everything correct, are you then really engaged to start learning? Not that much. So they analyze their questions. If they spot, okay, This is already really nicely retained within the company. Let's switch it up so the content is always relevant
[28:44] Leanne Elliott: If you had a magic wand and could just change one thing about the world of L&D or how businesses approach L&D, what would it be?
[28:50] Veerle Numan: Don't think AI can magically solve your entire learning culture. It's not that if you just push a lot of content, your learning culture is there. It's kind of like a library. You can have a super big library with thousands of books, but does it then really mean that people are going to read them, that it is valuable for them? So the learning culture is way more about, yes, you have a library, but how do you make it accessible for those people? So my magic wand would be giving people that knowledge. So Yes, AI can definitely help you to speed up processes, to make stuff more available, but then there needs to be a strategy behind it. So people are driven towards what is relevant for them right now, but also in the future if they want to upscale or reskill
[29:50] Al Elliott: I thought that was really interestingly, I particularly liked what she said about AI not being some magic Yeah, AI can get in the bin if you think it's going to fix anything independently
[30:03] Leanne Elliott: But, you know, from a psychological perspective, I think what was really great about what Veerle said, and within the context of AI as well, was the library analogy. Just because you have access to all of those resources doesn't mean that you're going to use them appropriately or your people will engage with them meaningfully. I mean, you used to have hundreds of books, Al, but I'm pretty sure you haven't read half of them
[30:24] Al Elliott: No. I really hadn't. I bought a load once from Borders. That shows how long ago it was
[30:31] Leanne Elliott: Oh, I used to love Borders. That was my Saturday
[30:33] Al Elliott: Yeah, but you didn't buy anything, which is why you know why Borders went out of business
[30:37] Leanne Elliott: Expensive
[30:38] Al Elliott: Exactly. But I just wanted to look clever. Talking clever, this idea of measuring the unmeasurable. I think most business owners really struggle with knowing if training is actually working
[30:47] Leanne Elliott: Yeah. And that's because traditionally organisations have focused on what's easy to measure, the completion rates, the satisfaction scores, that sort of thing. Very few Um, training programs will start with that training analysis. Very few will bake in that evolution, um, evaluation process that Veerle was talking about. It is so much more sophisticated when you do it correctly, and that doesn't mean more complicated, it just means more detail. So looking at how people actually interact with the contact and content and testing the different formats and measuring the long-term impact, that evaluation piece is so important. And that point that she gave about checking if people are skipping videos
[31:25] Al Elliott: Yeah
[31:26] Leanne Elliott: Or how they're engaging with the different types of content. I thought that was really clever as well. And not from a kind of calling people out. Do you remember that EY story we heard not so long ago where people were getting sacked for that type of thing? It's not to point fingers. It's to help you create content that is more engaging, that people will learn from more effectively
[31:43] Al Elliott: So, if you want to hear more from Veerle, then it's V-E-E— no, that's 3 Es— V-E-E-R-L-E, or Valamis. Then you can find her on LinkedIn. We'll pop the details into the show notes. Just a quick thought. It was, she was now, she was doing the interview with us in her, I think, third language. Um, so, uh, you know, it's just, it's incredible. Absolutely incredible. I, I love Europeans who could speak like 15 different languages. It's cool. It's cool. Anyway, onto my very favourite time of the week. It's time for the world famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Lee, I have 3 questions for you. Are you looking forward to it?