# Do we actually need to be kinder at work?

- **Episode:** [207](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/207.md) (2025-06-19)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** kindness, workplace, examples
- **Time:** 13:57–23:55 (start 837s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/207?t=837](https://truthliesandwork.com/207?t=837)

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[13:57] Al Elliott: So far, our examples, both yours and mine, of someone who is kind, who fits the kindness template we're talking about here, have been people in authority. So is it just leaders, managers that need to be kind, or do we all need to be a bit kinder?
[14:14] Jeff LeBlanc: For me, my immediate gut reaction is Yes, we absolutely need to be what I would call kinder. I don't think— I'm not in the business of telling people that they need to be nicer, right? I don't— if, if, I mean, look, it would be, you know, I, I, I think that life is easier when you're a little bit more pleasant, right? A smile here, a wave there, that sort of thing. And that happens, you know, some people are comfortable with that, some people aren't. But I also don't think that that's make or break, right? I think that for me, the taking a step back and being kinder, yes, because let's say that now we're the employee and we're working for someone like we both talked about, right? That stern sort of, you know, not exactly what people would automatically label nice, right? But we need to— how are we— where— if we don't give them the time of day, so to speak, then how are we ever going to get to know what they actually may be like? Right? And that's— there's been one of the— my favorite things that I always think about is, you know, I had a teacher in high school, and there were all sorts of rumors about her because she was a, um, a very strict person
[15:37] Al Elliott: Yeah
[15:37] Jeff LeBlanc: And a person who was a bit strange, which is not uncommon in these parts. But ultimately, she was someone who— she really was a decent person. And it was only students like myself and a few other people that would stay after for extra help and what have you that would get to know that, right? And could really say, you know, she's not drinking river water and living in a camper and all these rumors that were started about her. Not that there's anything wrong with doing those things to anyone in the audience. I'm not saying there is, but the idea was we took the time, me and other students, to really sort of see that person. And so I think that I would argue younger generations are sometimes a little bit more willing to do that. And that's one of the things I've noticed with Gen Z and working with them. But yeah, I think that's a long-winded way of saying, I think we do. I think we have to be willing to recognize and give someone a chance and not just write them off because they don't fit this standard idea in our head of what kind or nice person is. And I think we all have that. I think, I don't, you know, I don't know if it's universal globally, but especially here in the US, I mean, we have that image. I think I mentioned Mr. Rogers earlier and the different people that were sort of shown, you know, growing up that fit that ideal mold, but not everybody can fit that. And that doesn't mean that they're not kind. So that's where, again, empathy, right? Put yourself in their shoes. Easier to do when you're older, I think, than when you're a teenager and spreading rumors about your teacher
[17:37] Al Elliott: But nevertheless, so far we've challenged the way we think about kindness, not as soft but as structured. It's not about being liked but being trusted
[17:46] Leanne Elliott: And we heard Jeff reframe kindness as a leadership choice, one rooted in consistency, fairness, and systems that actually support people, not just words on a poster
[17:56] Al Elliott: But Jeff doesn't just stop there. He doesn't just think about kindness. He's actually built an entire model around kindness at work. It's called the Engaged Empathy Leadership Model, and the power is in its structure. Now, from what I've understood from what you're saying is that the structure and the fairness is what balances out the kindness to make sure that everything— or you become just the best leader or the best person in the workplace. But Talk to me about those 2 parts of the puzzle. What am I misunderstanding there?
[18:23] Jeff LeBlanc: Well, I think they're very connected and I think the, to sort of explain it, I can just sort of go back to how it started. And I was studying, you know, working and studying with Gen Z and sort of figuring out what they wanted in the workplace. You know, I wrote my dissertation sort of on that and, you know, what they wanted from a leader and what leaders thought that that generation wanted in the workplace. And one thing that I was repeatedly finding was that while something like kindness was coming up, there were other factors. And the factors were often the idea of organization. Structure got thrown around there, but a lot of the times, you know, it was, you know, like organized or knows what they're doing, you know, that sort of thing. Very clear, those sorts of, of, of phrases. And then, of course, the fairness element, the element that they, you know, that was repeatedly coming up, sort of something along transparency, you know, honest, those sorts of that I sort of could group in, I felt sort of in the fairness. And so for me, essentially, I took it on, you know, and expanded it, you know, and basically said that, you know, I felt that this was much more than just a younger generation thing, although I do think that it's very helpful
[19:41] Leanne Elliott: Yeah
[19:42] Jeff LeBlanc: With leading younger generations, because I think that again, that kindness is something that's, that's important, but I think it goes a step further. They're very good. I, I think younger generations are better, and maybe it's because the media that we were referencing at sort of recognizing the, you know, the false niceness, right? Like you can be that sort of nicey-nice person, but a lot of them, I see it all the time, you know, with students, they sort of can see through
[20:10] Leanne Elliott: Yeah
[20:10] Jeff LeBlanc: that. And I think people are getting better at that in general. But so for me, these 2 elements really help also say to the skeptics, and I talk about this in my book, that, you know, we're not, again, we're not lowering standards. The idea is to provide, you know, this level of kindness, this level of empathy, but also balance it with, uh, so that we take it a step further and we make sure that we're holding our standards to where we want them So for clarity, you know, for, for fairness, you know, that's, I think clarity comes into play. I think the idea that, you know, we see a lot of people get hired for positions and have really no sense of what it takes to be promoted or what it takes to receive a raise. And so I often, you know, talk a little bit about, you know, the clarity check-ins and sort of a clarity check-in the way that I see it is, you know, simply having a conversation with your employer
[21:09] Leanne Elliott: Yeah
[21:10] Jeff LeBlanc: And sort of seeing if we're all on the same page. You know, are you— do you know sort of— and ultimately the goal would be to sort of lead with this, right? To start with, you know, right from the beginning with your job postings. You know, it starts in human resources, I would say. But that's really, you know, this is, you know, do I feel like I'm being treated fairly? And with the structure, you know, I really do believe that Structure is one of the things. This is the one that most people actually respond to the most. You know, the idea of having, and it does tie into fairness, but it's a little bit more in terms of, you know, basically being very clear from the beginning. I know that of one company that, you know, I spoke to, they were losing people. And one of the issues was they had no idea, the employees, when I would talk to them, what sort of, and this sort of ties into fairness too, but it was more structure. They had no idea sort of what the policy was in terms of, again, going back to promotion. They had no idea if seniority was valued. They had no idea if there were like checkpoints in terms of how they could, you know, move beyond that next step or even how they would be evaluated. There was no structure in terms of how they were sort of being evaluated. And so they felt that even though they liked everyone they worked with and they liked their boss, they felt that they had no clue where their future was heading because there was no guidance in terms of, you know, what was, you know, where am I going? And so I think that I would argue the structure and fairness keeps People, it's sort of going back to that nice versus kind. The structure and fairness allows people to really think about, you know, how do I look as an employer? I come off, you know, having high standards, but being a, you know, a kind person, an empathetic person. And then the— From the employee perspective, you know, I think it helps them sort of feel like, okay, this person's being kind and nice to me. But again, going back to the nice versus kind, they're actually giving me guidance. They're giving me the instruction, the structure. They're being fair. They're telling me upfront seniority matters. They're telling me upfront, you know, how many clients I bring in matters or whatever it might be, right? Whatever the criteria is. And so I know that it's beyond surface So I just think that it toughens it up. I think it strengthens up the kindness and it adds layers to it