# Why we celebrate unkind leaders (Steve Jobs, Gordon Ramsay, Elon Musk)

- **Episode:** [207](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/207.md) (2025-06-19)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** unkind-leaders, steve-jobs, gordon-ramsay, elon-musk
- **Time:** 27:07–31:38 (start 1627s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/207?t=1627](https://truthliesandwork.com/207?t=1627)

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[27:07] Leanne Elliott: So far we've explored how kindness, when paired with consistency and structure, can drive trust, retention, and performance. But let's be honest, not everyone's on board. Some leaders hear kindness and flinch. They see it as soft, slow, Or simply incompatible with high performance
[27:24] Al Elliott: But when kindness goes wrong, when it's vague or inconsistent or used to avoid conflict, it can actually do more harm than good. So let's take a look at the pushback. Let's take a look at the risks and how power really works when kindness is done right. I think one of the pushbacks that someone hearing this for the first time would have is, yes, but if I'm kind as a leader or kind as You know, a subordinate to everyone else in my workplace, am I just not going to get trampled on? I've heard that nice guys come last
[27:56] Jeff LeBlanc: Yep. And I've had that happen. I, you know, in terms of when I worked with a— the example I always give, I worked with a— interviewed and spoke with, you know, someone who was, I guess I would call, you know, more of a blue-collar background, you know, more You know, the trades, that area, you know. And he was someone that was very concerned, loved, loved the other elements of the model. The kindness was the one that was the biggest concern, you know. And I, and my thought was, again, same thing, you know, this was a guy that I think that, I mean, I didn't know him well, but just from speaking to him, he seemed like somebody that You know, naturally had kids, had grandchildren, seemed to speak highly of them. When, you know, when you just didn't— when we were discussing and talking, you could tell that to me he seemed like a perfectly decent guy. So I saw no reason why that couldn't be brought in. And, you know, I remember saying to him, and he said the exact same thing you said, he actually said, and pardon the accent, but, you know, will this be Weird, you know, will they think I'm weird? And the reality is that, like I said, no, you know, and even if they do, who cares? Because ultimately you're setting the standard. And the idea for him was, look, I said, you're not the type of guy that you're going to, you know, be overly friendly and all these sorts of things that would come off. I really do think that would come off maybe strange. But I said, what about little things? You know, I said, what about sort of keeping track of, you know, which one of the guys on the, on the, you know, your team likes a certain, you know, sport, right? Or likes a certain sports team and, you know, sort of connecting with them in that way, you know? Or how about just remembering when, and even if you have to make a note for him, he had a, his memory wasn't great. So he would sort of make a note, like if one of the people that he worked for had, you know, a child that was sick, right? Or had a family member that was sick or things like that. I said, you know, how about making a note and then just remember? And because, because you have a lot going on, right? So you can't remember every little thing. How about making a little note so you can just send a quick email or send them a quick text, you know, asking how, how things are going with, you know, their, their, You know, their, their sick son or, you know, whatever it may be. And in some instances it made a big difference, you know, and I guess for, for him, you know, and this might be a gener— I think this was a generational thing. He, you know, just never really thought of that as something that was even maybe appropriate, you know, like it just never dawned on him, but it made sense when he did it and he started doing it and Things started looking different. I think it's incredibly hard to be truly kind. So if we can reframe it and we can start making people think that kindness is a good thing, is a strength, makes you strong, then that I think goes a long way with the mindsets of people. And I'm not saying that it's that that's necessarily what it should be, but I think that that's part of it. I think people see kindness sometimes as a weakness. I mean, they still do, let's face it. And so if we can toughen up the image, then I think we can sort of get better reactions from people