# What BATNA actually means

- **Episode:** [211](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/211.md) (2025-07-03)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** batna, behavioral-science, negotiation
- **Time:** 10:37–14:48 (start 637s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/211?t=637](https://truthliesandwork.com/211?t=637)

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[10:37] Al Elliott: We actually have a lot in common We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work
[10:58] Leanne Elliott: The audio destination for business professionals
[11:01] Richard Birke: Seamless
[11:15] Richard Birke: And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well
[11:24] Al Elliott: It is
[11:39] Richard Birke: It can
[11:42] Richard Birke: I am
[11:47] Leanne Elliott: But come back
[11:48] Al Elliott: Yeah, come back
[11:48] Richard Birke: Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this
[11:50] Al Elliott: So come back. I'll cut that out
[11:53] Richard Birke: Keep that in
[11:57] Leanne Elliott: Welcome back. Here's where it all gets interesting. Richard has a framework that solves all of these problems. It's built around 3 questions, and the 3rd one is where the real power lies. But firstly, let's just remind ourselves what BATNA is
[12:13] Al Elliott: Can you just tell us what the BATNA was? Is that— it was an acronym, was it?
[12:16] Richard Birke: Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement. It's what you walk away to. I like to boil things down to simple, easy-to-remember rubrics. And I think in every decision, in every negotiation, you want to ask yourself 3 hard but basic, simple questions. And the first one is, what do I want? And like we say, that one's hard. So if you're thinking, do I want to leave my job? Do I want to make my job better? Well, what does better mean? Because better is going to be eclectic. It's going to be better to you. You need to separate out the means to an end from the end. It's like, well, I'd like to get a raise. Well, why? Well, because I want a nicer car. Well, maybe the company can lease you a car. There may be other options. There may be a way that— so the interest versus the way to achieve that interest are different. So the question, the first question everybody should ask themselves is, what do I want? The second question that they should ask is, what's available? Because many people in decision-making become attached to things that would never in a million years happen. So you need to think what's available because it's no use getting attached to things that are never going to happen. And when I say what's available, part of what makes that complex is let's say we're in a negotiation. You're my employer and I'm looking for a change of status. What's available is going to be a product of what you're going to say yes to. So that second question is a question that requires exploration of a world outside of you. So if you're interacting with others, I'd like to get a job as a movie star
[14:09] Leanne Elliott: Okay
[14:11] Richard Birke: Is that available? Have you explored that? You know, how realistic is that? And the third question is, well, what happens if there's no deal? In other words, how well does the status quo serve my interests?
[14:23] Leanne Elliott: That third question, what happens if there's no deal? That's your BATNA. And the psychology here is brilliant. Research by Adam Galinsky at Columbia Business School shows that people who have strong alternatives feel more confident. take more risks, and achieve better outcomes in negotiations. It's not just strategy, it's neurological
[14:42] Al Elliott: So let's go back to Richard explaining how he used a BATNA when he was negotiating for his current position at JAMS