# Hot Take with Becky Simms: Should you talk openly about quitting?

- **Episode:** [216](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/216.md) (2025-07-22)
- **Type:** hot-take
- **Tags:** quitting, career-advice, hot-take
- **Time:** 24:11–41:44 (start 1451s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/216?t=1451](https://truthliesandwork.com/216?t=1451)

---

[24:11] Al Elliott: Keep that in. Welcome back. It is time for our Hot Take, where we bring in a guest to challenge the way we think about work. And today is about something that nobody likes to talk about, but everyone ends up dealing with— people leaving
[24:28] Leanne Elliott: Our Hot Take today comes from Becky Simms. She is the founder of Reflect Digital and CEO of the Human First Collective. She has spent nearly 2 decades leading teams, building agencies, and helping businesses grow through digital strategy and behavioral insight. And her view is simple. We need to stop treating resignations like betrayals and start being honest about the fact that most people will move on eventually
[24:54] Al Elliott: So, here's Becky Simms, and check out what she's talking about with Aspiration Digital. Really cool initiative
[24:59] Becky Simms: I'm Becky Simms. I am the founder of the Human First Collective, which is a group of agencies that put humans first in the way we work and the work we do. We also have an initiative called Aspiration Digital, which is where we inspire the next generation of digital leaders. So, we run events for sixth form students across the country, and we have a podcast called Behind the Future, which is where myself and a co-host student interview people that work in the sector to find out what they do and how they got into it. And if that wasn't enough, I also sit on the government's Digital Skills Council as an external advisor, helping address the UK's evolving digital needs and to create a workforce that can grow with the digital economy. So, my hot take is that Businesses and employees just need to get over the secrecy around the fact that people will leave their job at some point. It's this thing, it's a taboo, isn't it, to talk about it? And you end up one day, someone comes in and they just hand you their notice. And people still like to do that quite formally, don't they? We end up, especially if you're in person, you get the printed letter and you're like, whoa, where did this come from? And it's a shame. Like, actually, what we do in our business, and that I just encourage more businesses should do, is we talk to the team about being open about it. So, actually, when I do an onboarding intro with anyone new that joins our business. I always mention this. I say, now, you could be with our business for the next 5 to 10 years, or you might be here for a year or 2, and that doesn't matter. Like, one of our big things is that, one, we want you to make sure that you leave stronger and better than when you arrived, and make sure that we've had an impact on your career. But 2, we wanna help you to be having a fantastic career. And to do that, we wanna talk about your career plans. We wanna know what you want, where you want to be. And there will come a point where maybe that isn't with us. And let's talk about that because we've got incredible networks. We can help you set you up for that. We can help make sure that you can find the right next step. All the while also, we can business plan around that as well. So, whether that is that they want to go and work at, hopefully it's not in a competitor business. Normally it is that they want to do something different that maybe we haven't got the space for them to do in our business. But sometimes they might go on to a competitor, and that's equally fine because—
[27:09] Al Elliott: Yeah
[27:10] Becky Simms: I think there was, there was used to feel that there's this difference between the employer has all the control, but I really try to say, even like in people's probation periods, this is your chance to decide if you like working here as much as it is our chance to decide whether we think you're right for the role and working in this environment. So, it's the same when you talk about people's career prospects. There'll come a point where maybe they aren't right in the role they're doing, and then the aim is that you try and move them into the role that is right. But sometimes, again, it might be that they've kind of The business has outgrown them or they've outgrown the business. But all the while, it's this kind of taboo thing that we need to talk about behind closed doors and not to the person that really needs to hear it. You can't do anything about it and you can't help the person. And the same as well, we really encourage side hustles, people to be entrepreneurial. So, we recently lost one of my, probably the most important employees we've had along the journey. He was my sidekick for a huge amount of time, a fantastic guy, Sylvain. But he was running a side hustle, which we knew about, which we supported him in, and he's gone on to do great things with that. And I could not be prouder of him, but actually we managed to have a really wonderful exit where it was at the right time for both of us. We knew what was happening. We talked about it as adults and, and it's been perfect. We've been able to get the right person in to fill his shoes. It'll never be another Sylvain, but we've got a new person doing their thing and putting their stamp on the business. And it's brilliant. It also means that if you end things well, that you never know what happens next. People go and work other places where they might refer business back to you, but we've also had some boomerangers, people that have left, gone and done something different, grown, learned some new skills, and then come back to us because we've had, at that point, had the right role for them. Again, in a small business, you don't always have the opportunities to have the opening that they might want. So, they leave, they go do something else, and then when the time is right, they come back. I just think we need to get over the secrecy behind it and help each other from a business point of view and an employee point of view to have the best relationship while we're together and to help make sure that we can have the best relationship afterwards and that we're helping each other to grow. And also, when you welcome the conversation so that it's never this surprise of I'm going, but you've got a chance to talk to each other and to look at, is there another route? So, we've had people before that have said that, I'm not sure this role's what I want anymore, and I'm thinking of this, and we've gone, well, you could do that here. Like, we could build a pathway to get you into that role. Like, we might, we probably can't flick a switch overnight, but we can make it happen. Actually, one of our really long-term employees, she joined us, she joined us as a summer intern and then a year placement student. She then was working in our SEO team for Very long time, but really enjoyed the client side of it. So we built a pathway that meant that she moved into the client servicing team. She's now one of our account directors and she's absolutely thriving. But if we'd not created a space where we could have that conversation, she probably would have left as an SEO manager to go and find that pathway elsewhere. When actually we didn't want her to leave. She's brilliant. And she didn't really want to leave either, but it kind of forces those open conversations to go, well, we can help make this happen. And we try and make it just easy through the career development plan. I think the secrecy behind it and those kind of, you know what it's like when someone's starting to interview, oh, I've got a dentist appointment. Oh, you're suddenly going to the dentist a lot. It's like, just talk about it and let's help you, because also we might be able to make that introduction that is just what you need to find that next role in that company that might be better suited for what you want to do next
[30:55] Al Elliott: I think there's going to be a number of CFOs listening and going to go, who are going to be angry about this idea because they're thinking, I'm investing all this money in recruiting, training, onboarding, developing all of these, this amazing talent. And we're actively having a conversation with them saying, well, if you want to go, go. What would you say to those people?
[31:13] Becky Simms: Well, I suppose that you're also actively helping keep them in the business longer because if they openly are telling you and feel psychologically safe to tell you what they want and what maybe they're not getting, You can fix it. I think the problem with the mindset where it's not okay to talk about it is that the person just sits there thinking, well, I just have to do the job you've told me I need to do, and I can't— there's no wiggle room. And then it's, well, I don't really want to do this anymore. I want to do that. So, I'll just go find that, and they'll hear when I've found that, and I'm going, and here's my notice. Whereas actually, if you've created the safe space to go, do you know what? I've really been thinking about this. I've been having conversations with other people. I really want to develop more into this role
[31:54] Leanne Elliott: Yeah
[31:55] Becky Simms: Providing that's a role in your business, it's then in your power to help save that person and make sure that you can get them into that role when the time's right. And people are pretty reasonable, even if you can't make it happen overnight, but you can start to say, well, why don't, what if we had one day a week where we were helping you to do that? And then suddenly, actually, from the CFO's point of view, this is brilliant. We're keeping people longer because we're stopping them having to leave the company because they want something that that we didn't know about before. So, yeah, we love feedback. And again, when someone new starts, we talk about that so openly to say, there is nothing you can't say to us about feedback. We wanna hear it. And we don't let it be anonymous
[32:35] Al Elliott: You don't let it be anonymous?
[32:36] Becky Simms: No, you can't do anything with anonymous feedback. I don't know who said it. I don't understand the context, like, 'cause people will put like a couple of sentences and you're like, well, that's really annoying 'cause I don't know enough about that. I can't do anything with that now. So, We don't let it be anonymous. It has to be, but then we've created a safe space where people can say things openly enough, with their name against it, and they know we're not going to sack them tomorrow because they said something we didn't like, or we didn't want to hear. It's like, of course we're not. We need to hear this, and we need to hear it openly. So, yeah, no anonymous feedback
[33:12] Al Elliott: So, I'm going to talk about Aspiration Digital, right? So, from what I understand, it is taking younger people and getting them into industry. So, This sounds cool for someone who's maybe under the age of 25. You bring them in, they don't know where they're going. What does the— do you do the same thing if someone's maybe in their 50s and they're coming to your business and you still say, yeah, you can leave if you want? Is it a generational thing? Talk me through it
[33:32] Becky Simms: Aspiration Digital is very focused on helping school-age, kind of as they're at that leaving age. So, sixth formers, helping them to see what the roles in the digital space look like, because absolutely young people They are more well-versed in digital and tech probably than you and I. They're quicker, they're better, they're faster, they know all about it, but they so often do not know the jobs that sit behind it and that there's these real jobs and careers and things they can get paid to do that are exciting and fun and brilliant. They don't know they exist. And currently the curriculum does not make space to tell them about these jobs. So, they're leaving school unless they've had parents or friends of parents that are in these roles, or they have been super curious and found it, they don't know. So, that's what we do with Aspiration Digital. On the kind of career changer side of things, I'm really pro that as well. So, I add to my other things I do, there's an organization called BIMA, the British Interactive Media Association, which is like the FA is to the footballing world for the digital world. I help chair their Attract part of the of the organisation, where we're helping attract people into the sector, partly at the young age, which really aligns with Aspiration Digital, but also looking at career changes, because digital is amazing, especially for people that might want more flexible working once they've had children, being able to go and work in a career where it's not so tied to a desk, having to be in an office all the time, but actually things like our work-from-anywhere policy we were chatting about earlier. And those kinds of things that a lot of digital businesses offer and the flexibility to work different hours, et cetera, is really attractive to people that might be wanting to find the right career to suit their lifestyle once they've got kids and all the responsibility and things that come with that. And actually, there's a little form which you might want to put in the show notes that people can fill in. So, we are looking for speakers and people to get on stages to come and inspire students. So, we're At the moment, our next events are in Newcastle and in Kent, but we are currently in talks with lots of different venues across the country so that over the next year, we kind of want to get across the whole of the UK. I don't see why students just in our back garden should benefit from this. We want everybody to have the chance. So, there'll be opportunities to get on stages. We'll be looking for sponsors. So, we run this as not-for-profit. We aim to find venues that give us the space for free. So, any universities out there listening, you tend to be a good spot for us. We've also got the podcast Behind the Future. So, we're looking for guests to join us on that. So, there's lots of different ways, but on that form, we've kind of got a— you can tell us what you want to do and how you can help us. So, anyone that's interested, and you don't have to be a pure digital business, you just need to have something about what you do that's digital that you could inspire young people to show them how digital works in the world of work and how they might be able to aspire to do something like that
[36:34] Al Elliott: So, that was Becky Simms. Don't forget, Aspiration Digital, there's a link in the show notes to find out more about that. But before we talk about That, Lee, counterintuitive. Is this— is she mad? Is she a genius? What's, what's your psychological take on what she just said?
[36:49] Leanne Elliott: She's a genius
[36:50] Al Elliott: Well, there we go. That was Becky Simms and Leanne. So there you go, Becky, you've been told a genius. Leanne doesn't never call me a genius. Go on
[36:58] Leanne Elliott: I have definitely called you a genius before. Oh no, I, I like it, I like it, I like it. Look, if we've got organizations that have authentic psychological safety, which we go on about all the time, and business owners go on about all the time, that will include people feeling, being, feeling comfortable with being open and honest about what they want for their career, what that path looks like. And the reality is, particularly if you're a smaller business, you might just simply not have the roles available within your organisation to offer that career pathway. It might be that somebody wants to, you know, works for an agency and wants to go in-house for a little while. It might be they want a complete career pivot, I don't think it's the worst thing to ask people and expect them to be honest, because if nothing else, it gives you an idea of succession planning. And we've worked with clients that the worst thing about people leaving is they're completely blindsided and have no backup plan. So, I think actually this could be a really smart way of actually helping your person, and by doing that, they're going to give you 120% whilst they are in the organisation and give you a really clear view. of the succession plan that you're gonna need to have in place
[38:05] Al Elliott: Absolutely. So there may be 7 ways to leave your lover, but actually there's only one proper way to leave your employer. Leanne, she did say, now I dunno how you're gonna react to this, but Becky did say that she doesn't allow anonymised feedback. If you do surveys, you have to put your name to it. If you give some feedback, you have to put your name to it. Now, I pushed her on that and I said, that's not the way normal people do it. And she said, first of all, I'm not normal, I'm exceptional. She didn't, but I've added that bit. But secondly, she said, look, there's no wrong, there's nobody's wrong. It doesn't matter if you say this is all terrible because I want to hear it and I want to hear your name. I don't know how, which way this is gonna go, Leanne. What are your thoughts on that?
[38:45] Leanne Elliott: I mean, I think because of what she's doing, and I follow some of Becky's other approaches in terms of how she leads her business as well, but when you combine Combine that with the fact that she's openly asking when people are going to leave and she's not punishing them for it. Um, I know she has a— she has lots of trusted employees. They've got, I think they've got 4 weeks a year where they can work from anywhere in the world
[39:07] Al Elliott: 4-day work week
[39:09] Leanne Elliott: A 4-day work week. Do you know what I mean? Trust is so embedded in this organization, its culture. Then I, I, I can't, I can't say otherwise other than I'm sure it probably works. Without, you know, actually speaking to employees and getting their view on it. Um, but yeah, I think it's trust at that level, isn't it? That radical honesty. If people aren't being punished, they are experiencing true, authentic psychological safety, then I'm sure people would be happy to provide feedback without it being anonymized. Um, I would imagine that Becky's organization is one in a million for being able to do that. Um, I wouldn't recommend it to other businesses, but clearly Becky does not. need my recommendation. She is smashing it
[39:51] Al Elliott: And I think that's probably an important thing saying it doesn't work for every business because as Becky said in our conversation, it's like, it's, it's so important to understand that you can't just go out there and implement this, go, right, we're doing feedback, but it's non-anonymized, un-anonymized. It's not anonymous. You can't go and do that. You can't go and do the stuff that Becky's doing right now because Becky started a 4-week workweek in 2017, I think it was. So even before the pandemic. So, she's been doing all this, so she's got everything in place. So, every time she adds something new, it's just building on a foundation of amazing culture. It's not going, oh, we'll stick some pizzas down in the, in the, in the break room and hopefully they'll stop complaining about overtime
[40:31] Leanne Elliott: Yeah. And that trust is compounded, isn't it? It's not just in one example, it's over and over again over time. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. And Becky's created a culture that is, is authentically experiencing psychological safety
[40:45] Al Elliott: So if you wanna learn more about Becky, then definitely go and follow her on LinkedIn. And if you care about the future of work, then—
[40:53] Leanne Elliott: And you should
[40:54] Al Elliott: And you should. And if you don't, then what are you listening to us for, you weirdos? Uh, if you care about the future of work, then definitely go and check out the work she's doing at Aspiration Digital. Um, it is a phenomenal organization that I believe is not-for-profit. Don't quote me on that. I know it's not a commercial thing. And, and, uh, she's going around the country. She's going to Newcastle. She's hopefully going to Manchester, possibly talking to one of our friends in Manchester. I think you know which one. I think you can guess which one we're talking about. Um, and, um, you always do this on air, don't you?
[41:19] Leanne Elliott: You always drop something like that and I need to know immediately
[41:22] Al Elliott: I'm teasing you
[41:22] Leanne Elliott: My curiosity can't handle it
[41:25] Al Elliott: Back to Becky. So go and check out Aspiration Digital. Go and, and also if you think you can help with that cause, then click the link in the show notes, which is a form. You can fill it out and say what you can do. And she'll, I, I, she's such a lovely woman. She'll be like, yeah, great. Come and, come and get involved. So, uh, if you care about the kids, once somebody think of the children. If you care about the kids, then go and check out what she's doing