# Kahneman, fast thinking, and reflecting on behaviour

- **Episode:** [217](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/217.md) (2025-07-24)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** kahneman, fast-thinking, behavior
- **Time:** 6:15–11:43 (start 375s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/217?t=375](https://truthliesandwork.com/217?t=375)

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[6:15] Al Elliott: On your show, I think you've interviewed a lot of what people would call good managers. Do you find there are any kind of behaviors or traits or commonalities that show up from those people who are perceived as great managers?
[6:27] Andrew Palmer: Yeah, so I interview people but have never been managed by them. So there's always a little sort of trigger and little sort of alarm bell in my head. How great are they really? But they're certainly successful. And I do think that there are some common behaviors for people who sort of climb the ladder and think a lot about management. So thoughtfulness is a kind of, is a filter in itself, right? Someone who actually has a theory. So I would say the ability to sort of articulate clearly And repeatedly what it is that is important to them and their company matters. So one behavior is like these people can say what the mission of the company is or what it is they're trying to achieve, like instantly. There is absolutely no doubt in their mind what the values and the priorities of their organizations are. They are able to say it without appearing bored. And that sounds flippant, but I think it's actually quite important as a skill. especially if you're leading a big organization, you've basically got to say the same thing over and over again for years on end. I mean, it's that incredibly dull if you think about it, but they manage to do it without, as though they believe it. So they're passionate about it the whole time, slightly less flippantly. And on this point about them thinking about things, there's a high degree of self-awareness across most of the people that I talk to. So they have a sense of how they come across to people. So in talking about this with Emma Walmsley, who's the boss of GSK, very big drugs company, she's completely aware that her interactions with people elsewhere in the organization had the potential to kind of either turn a day into a triumph or a disaster for those people, and that she had to show up in a certain way. all of the time. So was very aware of that. And similarly, people like Claire Hughes Johnson, who's an American manager, chief operating officer of Stripe, which is a payments firm until recently, has a manual which it's called Working with Claire, where she writes down what it is like to work with and for her. So it basically is an expression of her Her working preferences. How does she like to receive information? Does she take decisions quickly? How much data does she like to have? That kind of thing. She sends checks with people around her. Is this a fair representation? And then uses that with all of her direct reports. And it's not a kind of like, this is the way it must be. It's just a sort of, it's an expectation-setting device. It's also a way of holding up a mirror to herself. And it's like an interesting way of thinking about, like, do I work efficiently? Is this the best way for me to take decisions? Um, am I providing psychological safety? People think about it in different ways, but they definitely think about it. And that, I think, is probably the common thread
[9:35] Leanne Elliott: There are some quite surprising ideas here, Al
[9:38] Al Elliott: Yeah, but what Andrew does brilliantly is not only summarize the idea well, but he also really thinks through the implications of it
[10:32] Andrew Palmer: Seamless, seamless
[10:34] Al Elliott: Tell us about your latest episode, Phil
[11:09] midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge): It can
[11:13] midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge): I am
[11:17] Leanne Elliott: But come back
[11:18] Al Elliott: Yeah, come back
[11:19] midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge): Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back
[11:22] Al Elliott: I'll cut that out
[11:23] midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge): Keep that in
[11:24] Leanne Elliott: Welcome back. Let's rejoin the interview where Al asked Andrew about managing great teams, falling in love with the solution, and why Steve Jobs might not have been the jerk boss that he's known as. But let's start with what Daniel Kahneman taught Andrew about thinking fast and slow