# Creating environments of inclusion

- **Episode:** [223](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/223.md) (2025-08-14)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** inclusion, workplace-culture, belonging
- **Time:** 14:14–18:43 (start 854s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/223?t=854](https://truthliesandwork.com/223?t=854)

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[14:14] John Michel: Yeah, I think it's important to create an environment where people feel included, right? So an environment of inclusiveness or belonging where people feel like they're part of something that they all identify with. So they have this kind of we spirit and they feel like they're kind of all together. Uh, and then, you know, just, I think having the reminder that, you know, keep the small talk professional, right? So make sure that it's okay to go, you know, to talk about things that are not task-related, but don't talk about things that may make people, you know, may kind of broach into people's personal lives or maybe it may be uncomfortable to talk about because it could expose a weakness or it could bring up something that, you know, that that is hurtful to the person. So for example, if somebody is experiencing financial debt, or if somebody is going through a divorce, if you bring up topics like that, it's gonna not only push the person away, but it's also going to start to make them feel like they're not part of the group, that people, if they're willing to talk about that with me, they clearly don't care about how I feel about the situation
[15:20] Al Elliott: Right
[15:21] John Michel: So if I were a leader and I was looking at this, it would be like, First, we need to create an environment of belongingness where we all feel like we're a team or we're a set of people who have a similar identity to the workplace. And then keep it fun but professional, right? So make it lighthearted but not overly personal or not overly sensitive, right? So kind of keep it, you know, talk about the weather, talk about sports, talk about Things that are going on in the company, to talk about vacation plans and similar, you know, find common interests, talk about games that people like to play. There's many things that you could engage people in conversation about that aren't going to get into personal issues such as health. You know, like if you say like, oh, you know, this person has lost a lot of weight or gained a lot of weight, and you start asking about health questions, that's going to make them feel uncomfortable. One, because they're getting into a personal thing that they don't want to talk about. But it's also going to expose a weakness, like, could this person be a liability to the company? So if you engage people in conversation like that, it's going to push them away because they're going to go into a protective mode where they feel like they need to, you know, either not answer or give a, you know, give kind of a very careful answer in order to protect their own image at the company. So it's really about making sure that conversations are fun, but not overly encroaching on people's personal space. We know from the organizational psychology literature that it's really important that you hire for fit and you hire people who fit the values and personality of the company and who really will not only get along with what the company's trying to accomplish, but with the people within the company. You know, the people make the place, and that's very true. And then once you have created that, it's important that you create this sense of belongingness. Now, belongingness kind of goes a step further than psychological safety. Psychological safety is a As you know, is all about being able to speak freely, being able to make mistakes without the threat of punishment or being made fun of. Belongingness is that, is a sense of psychological safety, but also knowing that people have your back and that people are looking out for your best interest and that we're all in it together and that people see me as an important, valued contributor to the organization. So, that's really what organizations want to focus on. So a lot of, you know, my research and a lot of research in this area focuses on how do you build strong interpersonal connections at work, right? So how do you build not necessarily friendships, but trusting, caring, nurturing relationships where people can be honest with each other, where people can be fair to one another, where people are, you know, showing care and concern to one another. in a way to try to build stronger social exchange relationships with their colleagues. That's really what we're looking to do in organizations if you want to create a sense of belonging, right? And that will fulfill their need for relationship and their need for belongingness, which are 2 of the central human needs that people look for
[18:31] Leanne Elliott: You mentioned that it was one of your, was it your PhD student who first started to look at the data and noticed this? This pattern, when you started to dive into it and research it more, was there a result that really surprised you?