# How John's research on coworker socializing began

- **Episode:** [223](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/223.md) (2025-08-14)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** research, coworker, socializing
- **Time:** 0:00–5:14 (start 0s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/223?t=0](https://truthliesandwork.com/223?t=0)

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[0:00] Al Elliott: Picture this for a moment. You're at the kettle making a coffee when Dave from accounts walks up and says, so how's your love life going? Or maybe Kendra, the new intern, suddenly blurts out, you look like you've lost weight. You got any health issues? Sounds really awkward, right? Well, according to new research, these uncomfortable small talk moments aren't just cringeworthy. They're actually making your employees ill
[0:21] Leanne Elliott: Our guest today, John Michel, was studying fun workplace conversations when his research students stumbled across something surprising. In the data, a large percentage of participants mentioned uncomfortable small talk, even though nobody had even asked them about it
[0:38] John Michel: My colleagues and I were doing some research on coworker socializing, and we were trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work, outside of work, in between tasks, things like that. And I had an undergraduate assistant at the time, and she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up. And it wasn't, it wasn't once or twice, it was like 50 to 80 instances
[1:06] Al Elliott: John has done extensive research on small talk, and he's discovered that awkward small talk doesn't just make people feel uncomfortable, it actually leads to emotional exhaustion, the precursor to burnout. And before you think this is just an introvert problem, it's not
[1:20] Leanne Elliott: Today we're diving into the hidden science of workplace chatter, why bad small talk can literally drain your team's energy, and the surprising difference between Small talk that builds connection and small talk that destroys it
[1:33] Al Elliott: This is going to change how you think about every casual conversation at work from now on
[1:38] Leanne Elliott: Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist
[1:55] Al Elliott: My name is Al. I'm a business owner
[1:56] Leanne Elliott: And we are here to help you simplify the So today we are asking, when does friendly workplace chat become a wellbeing killer? We think small talk is harmless, right? Just the way we build rapport with colleagues. But what if we've been getting it completely wrong?
[2:13] Al Elliott: Our guest today is John Michel, who's the Associate Professor at Loyola University of Maryland. He studies something most of us take for granted— those casual conversations that happen between colleagues. between meetings, at the coffee machine, or in the lift. His research reveals there's a dark side to workplace small talk that's hiding in plain sight
[2:32] Leanne Elliott: And if you're a leader thinking, well, I'll just ban small talk then, hold on! John's research also shows that the right kind of casual conversation actually boosts performance and reduces turnover. The trick is knowing the difference
[2:47] Al Elliott: So after this very quick break, we're going to meet John properly and discover what small talk really is, Why it can be exhausting and whether you need to be an extrovert to survive it. Don't go anywhere
[3:30] Al Elliott: Nice
[3:34] John Michel: So I am John Michel. I am an associate professor and the Bush Scholar at Loyola University Maryland in the United States. I conduct research in the areas of fun at work, coworker socializing and social interactions, and employee retention and performance. My colleagues and I were doing some research on coworker socializing, and we were trying to figure out the different ways in which people socialize at work, outside of work, in between tasks, things like that. And I had an undergraduate assistant at the time who's now a PhD student. studying elsewhere. And she was looking at the data that we had collected and came across a number of people talking about these instances of uncomfortable small talk that were just coming up. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't once or twice, it was like 50 to 80 instances of people mentioning this. And they weren't being asked about uncomfortable conversations at all. They were being asked about like, what are the types of things you talk about? Where do you talk about it? Who do you talk about it with?
[4:44] Al Elliott: Yeah
[4:44] John Michel: You know, and it really geared towards more fun conversations and playful conversations, things that got people excited to be at work and kind of improve the experience of work. And what she really found was that, you know, a lot of people were getting engaged in these conversations that made them feel a little uneasy or uncomfortable
[5:02] Leanne Elliott: We think small talk is the way that we get to know people, the way we start to build that rapport with our colleagues. And it seems like such a small thing. So, what's the big question behind small talk?