# Control vs. passion: what managers get wrong

- **Episode:** [225](https://agents.truthliesandwork.com/episodes/225.md) (2025-08-21)
- **Type:** interview
- **Tags:** management, control, passion
- **Time:** 13:54–17:23 (start 834s)
- **Listen:** [https://truthliesandwork.com/225?t=834](https://truthliesandwork.com/225?t=834)

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[13:54] Al Elliott: Let's stick with this idea of control. I think that a lot of managers will be worried that if they allow people to have fun at work, they're A, losing control, B, people are being distracted from what they're actually supposed to be doing, and C, perhaps they're being left out of the fun. I don't know. What would you say to a manager who's just like, I'm not up for this. This sounds like a distraction to me
[14:15] Joel Zeff: Don't you want your team members to be passionate about what they do, to be energized? That, that's what I want. I don't care whether they're accountants or IT or lawyers or HR professionals or marketing. I want them to love what they do. So my job as a leader is to figure out what my team members need to be happy. First, I think positive support and appreciation. And when you say, how hard is that for your manager? If you can't give positive support and appreciation, you shouldn't even be a manager. And think about all the people you had contact with on the way home. When you go home from work, think about all those people you had contact with. Here's the challenge. And you forgot because you're busy. You're this go-go leader. So you're thinking about it on the way home and tomorrow, give that appreciation
[15:09] Al Elliott: Yeah
[15:09] Joel Zeff: Say thank you. You're doing a great job. Appreciate the hard work. Appreciate what you did there on that project. That fuels us. That is inner, that energizes us. We want that. You know how it feels when someone says that to you. It's a gift and it's the best gift you can give anybody. It barely takes any time. Doesn't take any money. You don't have to put a big PowerPoint presentation together. You don't have to buy free pastries. I think your fictional leader that's worried about creating fun can handle creating positive support. I hope that's one that's going to create fun. Somebody tells me that I'm doing a great job and they appreciate me. I'm going to have fun. That's pretty good. That's a good feeling
[15:54] Al Elliott: Certainly I might be a bit worried about is if I'm right, okay, we're having fun at work. We're having a great time at work. Everyone's in the right role. Everyone's happy. We're having a great time at work, but then someone goes too far and then they say something they thought was funny but isn't and actually is bad. How do you curb that without taking all the fun out of the room?
[16:19] Joel Zeff: Right. That's a good question. And, you know, fun should be inclusive, shouldn't exclude people, should not offend people, should not be Uh, fun should not be at the expense of others. So those should be our, our, our guardrails really. And, um, when you understand that, and, and I know sometimes people sometimes will say something or do something and then they have to watch an HR video. Sometimes people don't know. They don't know, right? Sometimes people say something and they're like, Yeah. They don't realize that that offends or is at the expense of someone or excludes somebody. And so you have to educate. If it's said with malice, then that's another issue, right? If it's said without malice, then it's about educating and making sure you understand